Laying Odds on the Don't Pass / Don't Come

I'm starting to transition to playing the don't and am somewhat confused on how to lay odds. I understand 2 to 1 on outside, 3 to 2 on 5&9 and 6 to 5 on inside for odds on the don't pass. On a 10 dollar table on a 3-4-5x table what would be maximum odds for each? I'm assuming it doesn't go off of the same rules as rightside odds since the payout is less.
Thanks for any clarification. 




The limit when laying odds still refers to the table limits, in this case 3-4-5x your flat bet. However, those limits on the odds for the Don't Pass or Don't Come refer to what you can win, not what you can bet. An easy key for a casino that allows 3-4-5x odds is to multiply your flat bet by six to get your answer.

So, for the $10 table you mentioned and assuming you are betting the $10 on the Don't Pass, your maximum odds for any point would be $60.
 
Somewhat related and similarly, if you ever make a Lay bet (which also bets against a particular number), the commission is based on what you win, not what you bet. The opposite, a Buy bet, is charged commission based on what you bet.

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Overcharged On The Vig?

Question: Ok i need some help understanding something. This is the second time i’ve had this happen to me. I’m not grasping the concept.

Normally a casino makes you pay a dollar for every 20 you bet when it comes to the vig(5%). Well lately i’ve been playing at four winds in MI. I’ve been playing on the crapless craps table

They are doing some kind of combined vig. I don’t understand at all so i will do my best to explain it.

They allow you to buy at 10 dollars there. So i buy the 2 and 12 for $10 dollars each. I pay $1 vig for the two of them. Same for the 3 and 11, and 4 and 10. So its only $3 dollars to buy the 2,3,4,10,11,and 12 for $10 dollars on each number. All of which will then get payed at true odds. And i completely understand up to that point. Except when i start pressing. If i press the 4 or 10 to $20 dollars, the dealer was asking for a $2 dollar vig. Where as i would normally just pay $1 for the $20 dollar bet. They are taking the vig upfront, which is fine, but why do i pay $2?




First, let's clarify what you're experiencing.  You come up to the table, and let's say you have only $63 in cash on you.  You buy-in for the whole $63, and buy the 2, 3, 4, 10, 11 and 12 for $10 each.  Your vig is $3 on your $60 total action.  At your casino, they probably take an additional $1 vig every time your total action increases by $10 over the "standard" $20 increment (it may even be less... you'll have to ask the casino what their breakage policy is).  Since it costs you $63 to book your desired bets, you have nothing in your rail in front of you.

YOUR SCENARIO:
Now, the 4 hits.  You want to press the 4 to $20.  Before the vig, the payout is $20.  In order to make your desired press, the dealer subtracts $10 from your payout to increase your bet, but also takes a $2 vig... at which point you start scratching your head.  The dealer gives you $8 change ($20 - $10 - $2 = $8), and this is what you have in your rail now.

THE CASINO'S LOGIC:
$70 total action requires a $4 vig at this casino and the only vig that has been (pre)paid after the 4 hits is $2.  Hence, they charge you an additional $2 for pressing to $70 total action.  Consider this...

ALTERNATE SCENARIO:
The 4 hits... but this time, you come down on the 4.  The dealer gives you a total of $30 ($20 payout + $10 original bet = $30), and this is what you put in your rail*.  Additionally, you decide that you want to come down on all of your other buy bets.  So he is going to give you the other $50 plus whatever vig is left.  Since your 4 already hit, $1 worth of vig has already been "used up".  Therefore, there is $2 in unused vig.  The dealer gives you back this $52, and now you have a total of $82 in your rail.

BUT... now you want to have your original setup of $63 buy bets PLUS the press on the 4 to $20.  So you will have $10 each on the 2, 3, 10, 11 and 12 plus $20 on the 4.  Since that is $70 total action, the casino must charge you a $4 vig (every $10, remember?).  So... you've got $82 in your rail, and you have to give the dealer $74 for your desired bets.  What have you got left in your rail?  $8... the same ending result as what you've been experiencing.

I hope that clarifies what you've been experiencing.

* - This is a somewhat simplified explanation so you will follow the logic.  You should see what happens if you just come down on the 4.  Technically, they should still charge you $1 for coming down.  This is because your $50 action remaining needs a $3 vig and only $2 hasn't been "used up".  That would give you $29 and down on the 4.  But... if you then came down on all of your other bets, that would now be an additional $53.  $53 + $29 = $82.  When you set up your $74 action, you'll still be left with $8, so the fact that they probably charge you $1 for coming down does not change the end result.

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Put Bet Availability/Popularity

Question: Just wondering about the put bets I have not heard them brought up where I play, is this a bet that most casinos do not offer or just uncommon to be asked for?


Put bets are definitely not offered in every casino that has Craps.  The reason may be because the casino may not offer enough odds to be taken on Put bets in order to make them mathematically better than Place bets.  Or, the casino may simply just not choose to allow them.

But the reason you may not have heard of them at your casino is probably because they are somewhat unpopular to begin with.  My experience tells me that the reason for this is more because people don't know about the bet, rather than they don't like the bet.  And of course, when players do know about them... the casino would have to offer favorable conditions and you would have to be betting with amounts to take advantage of those conditions in order for them to pay better than their corresponding Place or Buy bets.

However, even if you can take advantage of a Put bet's better payout, you sacrifice the ability to turn the bet "off" or take the entire bet down before it is resolved.  Many players value this flexibility that Place/Buy bets offer and is likely another reason that contributes to the unpopularity of Put bets.

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Why is the Stickman Messing With My Dice?

Some people have asked why the stickman on a craps game sometimes messes with the dice before he sends them to the shooter.  Could this be because they are trying to jinx you and mess you up?

Nope.  What you could be witnessing is a security measure so that the boxperson can check if the dice are legit.  In a process known as "squaring the dice", the stickman is supposed to bring the dice in front of the boxperson (hopefully the same way they landed), flip them over so the bottom is now face up, and then angle the dice so that the boxperson can see two sides of each die facing him.  The other two sides of each die can be seen in the mirror that lines the wall underneath the stickman.  By doing this, the boxperson will have seen all six sides of each die.  This is typically done after the come-out roll.

"How does checking the sides help find weighted, or other kinds of fixed dice?"

Other security features can be built into dice to prevent dice switching.  Dice have what you can think of as serial numbers on them, but a casino logo can also be on the dice as well as a single letter printed on the reverse side of one of the white pips.  If there's any doubt about the dice, there are die calipers that they can use to make sure they are balanced.  I'm sure there are other security features as well.

"You said they only square the dice after the come-out roll, but sometimes I see the stickman play with the dice even if it's not after the come-out roll."

That's right.  The stickman is also supposed to avoid sending the dice on the totals of 2, 3, 7, 11 and 12 (known as naturals).  The only reason for this is to accommodate superstitious players... of which there are plenty on Craps.  If you're a dice setter, sometimes the stickman will recognize this and set them for you before sending them out.  But he/she will only do this if it is allowed, there is time to do it, knows how you set the dice, and if you're nice to them.

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The Captain's 5-Count Method

I have been asked to comment on The Captain's 5-Count Method for Craps, which is a shooter qualification criterion.  It basically says that a player should wait until the shooter makes a certain number throws before betting.  The original article can be found here: http://s113152270.onlinehome.us/proof.shtml  After reading about the method and the "proof" given by some advocates, I am now ready to give an explanation of my point of view regarding this strategy.

Firstly, the data given in the article is somewhat incomplete/misleading.  Total wagers are given for the "Bet-All" and "5-Counter" players, but it is not explicitly stated if these are on a per roll, or per resolved bet basis.  However, after stating that the loss is approximately 1.5% after making Place bets on the 6 and 8, we can assume that the total wagers are calculated on a per bet resolved basis, as opposed to per roll. 

Additionally, the average loss per shooter is given for both types of players, but the number of shooters used in each of the calculations is not shown clearly.  The simulation used 200 million random shooters, so total losses were divided by 200,000,000 in order to come up with the average loss per shooter.  The problem with this is that the 5-Counter did not bet on all of the shooters, so the comparison of averages at this point is meaningless.  It should be obvious that the less often you play, the lower your average loss per all shooters will be.

So, you think this strategy helps avoid the Point-Seven-Out (PSO), or the Point-get-a-few-rolls-then-Seven-Out shooters?  Well, sure it does... and according to the article, that's 50% of all shooters - 100 million in the given example.  But once you enter the game on the shooter's sixth roll, guess what happens?  Using the same mathematical basis, 50 million of those shooters should still seven-out within five rolls - again, 50% of shooters you bet on.  So what will you use to avoid the P+5SO or Point-get-a-few-rolls-plus-5-then-Seven-Out shooters?  Use a 10-Count method? 

It is irrelevant how many throws a shooter makes without a Seven-Out if you're not betting, and you do not have a better chance of winning if you use the 5-Count method.  The article admitted that the losses per money wagered for both the "Bet-All" and "5-Counter" players were about 1.5%, and this should signal right away that you are probably going to lose the same amount of money if you are using this method... just at a slower pace.

What of the claim of making Craps a positive expectation game?  This claim is actually true... sort of.  The method proposes that a player can expect to win playing Craps as long as comps are factored in.  Well, the article states that the casino rates a 5-Count player as if he/she had bet on every shooter, and this is not always the case.  Some supervisors are aware of betting frequency, and they can lower the rate at which a 5-Counter receives comps.  But IF the 5-Counter is rated as if he was betting all the time, it is at least possible to have a positive expectation on the game after factoring in the comps.  But you don't need a 5-Count method for this to be true - you could simply bet on every other shooter and achieve basically the same effect.

Then there's the issue of controlled shooters.  Supposedly, if there is a shooter on the table that is able to deliberately influence the outcome of the dice, then the 5-Count method will have you betting on them more frequently than if you were not using the method.  Again, this is probably true.  I don't want to get into a discussion about dice controllers/influencers at this moment, but IF (big "if" there) it is possible to influence the dice AND there just happens to be one of these people on your table, you actually would have a better chance of winning (contrary to what I said before)... but I'd think that you wouldn't need a 5-Count method to figure out when to bet.  That's just my opinion.

So is the article in question full of lies?  Absolutely not.  The only issue I see is with how people tend to interpret it.  Some Craps players say it works, but have fooled themselves into thinking that they have avoided the shooters that seven-out within five rolls, or that they have better chances of winning because they only jump in during the longer rolls.  Unfortunately, long rolls have very little importance to you if you are not betting, and when you jump in, you might as well toss your count out the window, because your chances of avoiding a quick seven-out have not improved.





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